The True 6536 Submariner

Hallo an alle Rolex Vintage Liebhaber hier.:dr:

Ich möchte mich noch mal kurz vorstellen, da ich die hier schon seit einiger zeit Mitglied bin, doch hatte die letzten Jahre meine Zeit auf einem American Forum als Moderator verbracht.
Bin ein absolute Rolex freak, und liebe alles was mit Rolex zu tun hat, abgesehen von Promotional Sachen, habe ich auch eine kleine Sammlung von Uhren und in bin mehr in die Vintage Seite geschwungen.

Vor ein paar tagen hatte ich ein Bild von meiner Submariner gezeigt, und natürlich dachten viele das es eine Fälschung war.

Diese "James Bond" Submariner wie manche sagen ist eine der seltensten Submariners die in der Serie sind. Natürlich gibt es viele 6536/1 reference, wie ich auch in eurem Rolex Bilder gesehen hatte, doch die original BREVET 6536 wurde nur im Jahre 1955 mit bestimmten 5 stelligen Serien Nummern hergestellt.

Ich mochte Euch auch noch ein Anticel zeigen, hergestellt von Vintage hour und Stefano, die meiner Meinung die besten Artikel sind Über dies Uhren.

Entschuldigt bitte wenn die artikel in english sind oder meine Schrift manchmal english drin ist, aber nach Über 20 jahren hier, man vergisst die Rechtschreibung ein bisschen.


Zunächst ein paar Bilder von meiner Submariner wie ich sie bekommen hatte..


http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3399.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3397.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3398.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3386.jpg


http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3421.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3424.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3420.jpg



Hier ein Einblick in das Werk und die Nummern.


http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3380.jpg


http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3383.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3403.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3412.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3417.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...IMG_3415-1.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3411.jpg

The Rolex Submariner models reference 6536 and 6536/1 are very closely associated by reference numbers but there are very notable differences which will be covered comprehensively in this article. By comparison, the Rolex Submariner ref. 6536 is indeed a very rare model reference, in which there are only approximately 100 pieces which were produced. According to orologiovintage.it, this elusively scarce no-crown guard 6536 was produced only for 1 year in 1955, and the documented serial numbers range from 8912x – 8947x. As for reference 6536/1, this model was produced between 1955-1959.


Da diese Submariner einige Beschädigungen hatte, dauerte es etwas bis ich ein NOS original T18 Superdome fand zur Erneuerung .

Mein Uhrmacher, der 47 Jahre Erfahrung hat und seit 30 jahren an Rolex Uhren arbeitet, hatte alle teile noch für das Laufwerk, eine neue Main spring, Tube und Crown
und ein voller Service und nun tickt sie wie neu.
Die Bezel insert mussten wir von einem spateren Model nehmen und kleine drehen das sie in das Thin Case Messing Bezel reingeht.

Das Zifferblatt ist natürlich eine andere Sache, wir sind sicher, da die letzten der reinen 6536 einen 4 liner , Superlative Chronometer / Officially Certified Blatt hatten,
das dieses Zifferblatt ersetzt wurde und ein wahrscheinlich 5508 Blatt verwandet wurde das auch modifiziert [ runtergedreht ] wurde und die Tiefenanzeigung nachträglich , doch leider falsch rum, draufgestanzt wurde.

Die Durchmesser von Zifferblättern.


6536 – 26,98mm circa cal. 1030 deep 100/330
6536/1 – 27,68mm circa cal 1030 deep 100/330
5508 – 27,69mm circa cal 1530 deep 100/330
6538 – 27,00mm circa cal 1030 deep 200/660
5510 – 26,96mm circa cal.1030 deep 200/660



Das Armband war mit der Uhr und ist wahrscheinlich von einer Vintage Omega Seamaster, da Rolex, soweit ich weiss, kein Stahl President Band herstellte.

Hatten neue Oyster endglieder genommen, der Oyster Verschluss ist original von 1962.



Hier sind noch ein paar Bilder von der fertigen Uhr.


http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3830.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3819.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3822.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3497.jpg

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...6/IMG_3825.jpg





Hier ist noch mehr Information von den 6536 und 6536-1

Hoffe es hat Euch allen gefallen, und bitte wenn noch Fragen sind, versuche ich sie zu beantworten.
Ebenso hoffe ich noch mehr Vintage Rolex Uhren zu zeigen mit etwas Geschichte.

Gutes Wochenende an Alle.:dr::gut:





Is there really a difference in the movements of 6536 and 6536-1?

Siphoning through the Vintage Rolex Forum archives, there is a wealth of data on both model references. One very interesting question which was always raised is concerned with the legitimacy of a "chronometer" movement in either 6536 or 6536-1. According to a reply by RolexWatchTime on 8th July 2008 on VRF:

I am still waiting for someone to show in printed Rolex literature that the -1 is a chronometer and the 6536 is not. Waiting….these are truths that become such, based on repeated theoretical subjection…

It is not in any catalogue that way. In fact you will not see a 6536-1 in any catalogue from the period. It is never mentioned, but it is far more common.

The 6536 originally used a different gasket and a different crystal and a different case tool jig. I think it is a totally different watch and the movement is not part of the difference at all. The difference is in the case.

Just like a 5508…sometimes they are chronometer sometimes they are not. Why then is not the chronometer version of the 5508 a 5508-1

The 6542 was available as a 17 jewel non chronometer. I have a catalogue that states this….ever seen one? Why then is not the chronometer version that we all know designated as a 6542-1?

This difference is a theory. I wish someone would get to the bottom of it.

Until I see it in print I consider it mere long running subjection.

I am open to correction…but I have been waiting 10 years

As stated above, there was never a published article by Rolex SA clearly elucidating that the main differences between a 6536 and 6536-1, less mention the chronometer movements in either reference models. Now let's move on to the comments made by Marcello Pisani in this same post:

The main differences are…

1) 6536 has a 6538 case , so higher than the "thin" case for 6536/1 (the same you have in 5508) btw ); sometimes this case is defined "interim" or "intermediate" case

2) the dials have different width ( although the movement is the same ), as the 6536/1 is larger,so you cannot put a 6536/1 dial in a 6536 case ; if you do so the word "swiss" almost disappears in the rehaut.


Much more than dial and case variations?

One very interesting post in a different thread on VRF , by Arthur who has a different perspective in that he believes that there are more dial and case variations between the 2 Submariner references in question. He explains:

More dial and case variation then we think. I played around years with my 6536 and 5508s dial sizes and found that it must be dial plate variation..The dial in my 6536…not with a "1" referance was the same size as my 5508 dials from my results. But I suspect that case and dial plate production variables are at work here.

Being a watchmaker and a few years back on Kamal's old site we had this same discussion encouraged me to some investigating as well.

Owning both a 6536 and a few 5508's it was easy to see if the dial plate sizes were close. I took both the movement screws completely off the 1030 and 1530 caliber with the dials and hands completely on each respective caliber and swapped each into the opposite case and hand held them into the case. Waht I found was the dials Swiss fonts and outer chapter ring where not buried in each oposite watch case, but they aligned in the right place..Now I also respect Francesco's results and also know that case lip where the dial meets might play a factor as well as different dial plates produced.

This brings to mind the early pointed guard 5512 equipped with the gold gilt Swiss 4 liner Swiss dials that have a distinct dial gap to case lip on some 5512 cases and not on others. The question here is, was that gap caused by dial plate size or case lip production…no decisive answer has been reached

My guess is that measuring on one or two dials or swapping 5508 and 6536 cases cannot tell the whole small crown story. Like on my 6536 dial for example, sizes can in fact have a generous degree of variation..as when I ran my physical test on case and dial/movement swapping..all the parts in question lined up.

In conclusion 6536 case and dial plate production I suspect have yielded different outcomes to our results.



I have specifically highlighted 6536 and 6536-1 to reflect the dial measurement differences that are apparent in both models. As seen above, the numbers further solidify Marcello Pisani's statements on the larger width of the 6536-1 dial versus the 6536 dial

Conclusion?

Earlier from 2007, Marcello Pisani, a very knowledgeable vintage Rolex collector and researcher posted the differences between 6536 and 6536-1 on VRF.

the 6536 ( early 1955-1956 ,first with 5 digits case number ) has the following features :

1) the case is a little shorter than 6538 but is higher than 6536/1 and 5508
2) the inside of the back in early watches ( 5 digits case number ) is punched "6538", overwritten "6536".
3) the inside of the case has the same width of 6538 ( at the beginning they in fact had the same
dial without maximum depth and also without the word "submariner" , later they were fitted with a different dial with maximum depth in red )
btw the dial for 6536 is larger than later dials for 6536/1 so you cannot put a dial for 6536 in a 6536/1 case.
the 2nd batch of 6536 has the inside of the back punched "6536" and the dial has the maximum
depth in red.
the movement is allways the 1030 for both series of 6536 and the 6536/1.

Just a few days ago on 14th March 2012 on VRF, Mark (aka MdV) posted his findings on the differences between 6536 and 6536-1:

Hi,

This is an old and returning question. The ref 6536 and 6536-1 are different watches but the difference has nothing to do with the movement being chronometer or non-chronometer. Somehow this adagium keeps popping up though.

Anyway, the ref 6536 is a completely different watch compared to the 6536/1. Actually, in contrast to common opinion, the movement is one the items that both share. I had both refs and the differences I found:

- different case: the 6536 case it thicker, same as 6538. Between the lugs it should read "6536" or "6536" after a striked through "6538". All have a small crown. Note: in my opinion there are even two versions of the case: one is a 6538 the other a "true" 6536, which has a thickness between the 6536-1 and the 6538…..

- differend plexi: should be tropic 18 (unique for the 6536)

- different dial diameter: a correct 6536 dial is 27mm in diameter whereas a correct 6536/1 dial is 27.5mm. Depth 100m as all other small crowns. "swiss" dial mostly had the "depth in red";

- inside of caseback: Most I have seen had a double ref so 6538 striked through and replaced by 6536 but I presume there have been casebacks with just 6536 stamped.

Now regarding the bezel: I checked the bezels on my watches and the only difference I could find was a difference in inner diameter. Obviously this is dependent of the glass retaining ring (not sure what the correct name is. I happen to have an example of both in a very good condition and there is little difference between the "looks" but I must admit I did not measure thickness. problem is that most bezels are not in a NOS condition anymore and maybe glass retaining rings might be exchangeable between small crowns as the 5508 and 6536-1 vs the 6538/6536. If that is the case, the bezels may be exchangeable too.. But if you ask me, I would say that "originally" the 6536-1 and 5508 bezels would have been the same, the bezel of the 6536 would have been different.



Based on the above findings, it can be concluded that distinctive variances between both Rolex Submariner references 6536 and 6536-1 are evident. From the "one model-one tropic" reference 18 for 6536 only, to the case sizes and dial diameter differences. It is indeed a very difficult task to pinpoint the distinctive differences without actually having both models in hand. As of this moment, I have yet to see a Rolex Submariner 6536 in person. (I thought I saw one in real life a short while ago, but found out that it was indeed a very good replica through the advice of Philipp Stahl — thanks Philipp!) Certainly, a Rolex Submariner reference 6536 has been on my mind for the longest time. No crown guard Submariners definitely have a special place in my heart, and I hope that this article have widened your horizons in the world of vintage Rolexes like it did for me. I would like to extend my gratitude to all the vintage Rolex collectors and authors whom I have credited for their literature and images. If not for their extensive research and willingness to share, all these critical information would not have been possible to shed enough light on the differences between the 6536 and 6536-1

Tolle Story Tolle Uhr CONGRATS!!
Das ist VINTAGE!!

Grüsse Jan

Bei einem Oldtimer würde man wohl Scheunenfund dazu sagen.
Allen Respekt wie das Baby nach der "Wellnessbehandlung" aussieht.

Mmmh. Der Laie staunt. Die Fachleute grübeln noch?

Ok, jetzt wird's klarer.

Das Zifferblatt ist halt schade.

Willkommen bei rlx.

Behrad

Auf jeden Fall hast du dir viel Mühe mit deinem Beitrag gegeben... und interessant ist er zudem auch noch... und schöne Bilder sind sowieso immer gut :-)

Schöne Uhr....schade, daß das Blatt nachgemalt wurde!

Vielen Dank fuer die Comments.:gut:

Ein originales Blatt zu finden ist nicht einfach, doch irgendwann wird wohl eins auftauchen.

Bericht und Uhr gefallen mir außerordentlich gut. :dr:

Edit: Erstell doch noch bitte eine Signatur mit Deinem Vornamen. Das ist hier so üblich. Danke!

Interessante Story!!!

Besten Dank für die aufwendig aufbereiteten Infos - sehr sympathisch :gut:

Die Uhr wird sicherlich ein interessantes Projekt bleiben, das ist ja u.a. ein Faktor, der Vintage und die Suche nach Details so interessant macht.

Herzlich willkommen bei uns. Ich bin mir sicher, noch viel Interessantes von Dir zu lesen zu bekommen!
Der Anfang war es schon mal auf alle Fälle! :top:

schöne Geschichte, schöne Uhr, schönes Stück Arbeit!

Der Vorher-Nacher-Effekt ist ja unglaublich... Eine echt schöne "Ur-Submariner"! :gut:

Nochmals vielen Dank für das Willkommen .:dr:

Freue mich auf mehr Beiträgen.:gut: