Question about vintage dial preservation for the experts!

[jholbrook]

Greetings R-L-X! :dr:

I've owned very few vintage watches, so I'm far from an expert in this arena, so I have a question about the dial of my 1680.

The markers of my 1680 are in relatively good shape...not ultra brite white, but not a yellowish patina either, which I don't particularly care for. Is there anything I should do storage wise to keep my dial from further yellowing or at least slowing this process down? I know it's caused by the Tritium on the hands and markers...does sunlight affect this process at all? Other environmental factors?

[PCS]

I guess, sunlight affects this process, also humidity but most of all, I am
quite sure Rolex used many differend mixtures for the indicees, so at all,
some will get more patina, regardless of how you store them.

[Edmundo]

Because the acrylic glass is not UV resistant the ultraviolet rays can pass and get onto the dial and to the luminous material. This has an effect, of course. Saphire glass protects the components below the glass.

[NicoH]

So you´re best off *not* to wear the watch? ;)

[PCS]

Or give her a saphire glass... :D

[jholbrook]

Thanks for the insight guys...Maybe I'll just wear it more in the winter than in the summer....and at night. :tongue:

I toyed with the idea of storing the original dial and buying one that had been given bright markers.

[Boris_Koch]

Originally, I took for granted, like most, that the more tritium gets exposed to light, the darker the patina.

Yet there's a couple of instances recently where guys have posted pictures of 5513 that they bought with a yellow patina, which became lighter over time as they were wearing them. One of them is a guy I know personally, his account is here. (http://forum.chronomania.net/mix_entry.php?id=27826#p27826) Sorry it's in French, but I think the pictures speak for themselves. The first was shot in June 2006 and show a uniform light yellow patina. The second is from early 2007, and the indexes are almost pure white. Some other accounts were given by Jaume on TZ Rolex vintage here (http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=2949560&rid=3902) and there. (http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=3194655&rid=0)

Honnestly, I don't quite know what to make of it. It could be the result of the light exposure, different levels of humidity where the watch was stored, etc.

Could also be that tritium color degrades more to yellow when exposed to bright light as the radioactive material is still active. And then, when the degradation caused by radioactivity is dead, strong light would cause the same whitening effect it does on any colored object.

So if it were me, I'd do what I do with any other watch: store it in a safe when not wearing the watch. And this would never, ever prevent me from wearing the watch when I feel like it, ie either in summer or winter (not that we have much winter in Singapore anyways).

I guess, if anything, this shows that, as in all things Rolex, there is never one definitive truth (except for Mr Patrizzi of course, for any watch he happens to have on sale).

Boris

[NicoH]

Great comments there, Boris!

John, I would never store away a dial to wear the watch with another dial. Seriously, if you are worried about aging of a certain dial, you should either put the watch away and only look at it at night or not buy it in the first place.

Watches are for wearing. If you decide to buy a beautiful vintage watch you should be aware of the consequences, e.g. aging of dials. Or - again - put it in the safe but that would be a shame.

There was a guy in the German speaking section of this forum a few days ago who got seriously beaten because he bought new bracelets for his watch as he was afraid the original bracelets could wear out. (Admittedly the new bracelets were aftermarket bracelets but the situation is comparable to yours).

Cheers-
Nico

[jholbrook]

Originally posted by Boris_Koch
Originally, I took for granted, like most, that the more tritium gets exposed to light, the darker the patina.

Yet there's a couple of instances recently where guys have posted pictures of 5513 that they bought with a yellow patina, which became lighter over time as they were wearing them. One of them is a guy I know personally, his account is here. (http://forum.chronomania.net/mix_entry.php?id=27826#p27826) Sorry it's in French, but I think the pictures speak for themselves. The first was shot in June 2006 and show a uniform light yellow patina. The second is from early 2007, and the indexes are almost pure white. Some other accounts were given by Jaume on TZ Rolex vintage here (http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=2949560&rid=3902) and there. (http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=3194655&rid=0)

Honnestly, I don't quite know what to make of it. It could be the result of the light exposure, different levels of humidity where the watch was stored, etc.

Could also be that tritium color degrades more to yellow when exposed to bright light as the radioactive material is still active. And then, when the degradation caused by radioactivity is dead, strong light would cause the same whitening effect it does on any colored object.

So if it were me, I'd do what I do with any other watch: store it in a safe when not wearing the watch. And this would never, ever prevent me from wearing the watch when I feel like it, ie either in summer or winter (not that we have much winter in Singapore anyways).

I guess, if anything, this shows that, as in all things Rolex, there is never one definitive truth (except for Mr Patrizzi of course, for any watch he happens to have on sale).

Boris

Boris - this is some fantastic insight - THANKS!!!!

[jholbrook]

Originally posted by NicoH
Great comments there, Boris!

John, I would never store away a dial to wear the watch with another dial. Seriously, if you are worried about aging of a certain dial, you should either put the watch away and only look at it at night or not buy it in the first place.

Watches are for wearing. If you decide to buy a beautiful vintage watch you should be aware of the consequences, e.g. aging of dials. Or - again - put it in the safe but that would be a shame.

There was a guy in the German speaking section of this forum a few days ago who got seriously beaten because he bought new bracelets for his watch as he was afraid the original bracelets could wear out. (Admittedly the new bracelets were aftermarket bracelets but the situation is comparable to yours).

Cheers-
Nico

Hi Nico - I've definitely been wearing the watch and feel the same way. :gut: But if I can make only slight alterations to my wearing habbits which will extend the life of the watch, I'd like to know. :]

[newharry]

Original von Boris_Koch
So if it were me, I'd do what I do with any other watch: store it in a safe when not wearing the watch.


That are some interesting ideas and definitively worth doing more research on it. I have often talked to my watchmaker about this pehenomenon and he thinks that the most important factor is humidity.

As you have already said UV-exposure usually has more of a bleaching effect.

Reagarding the question on storage in safes there was an interesting discussion on an English speaking forum some times ago basically saying that the humidity level in a safe can be quite high due to being more or less hermetically sealed.

[NicoH]

Original von jholbrook
Hi Nico - I've definitely been wearing the watch and feel the same way. :gut: But if I can make only slight alterations to my wearing habbits which will extend the life of the watch, I'd like to know. :]

O.K. - gotcha! ;)

Enjoy wearing those beauties - I really like all the pics that you keep on posting here! :gut:

All the best-
Nico

[Boris_Koch]

Agreed, humidity can be a bit higher in a safe.

Then again, speaking for myself, I live in sigapore where, no matter where you store a watch, it's still pretty humid from January to December. So I doubt that a safe will make much difference.

Boris

[steboe]

Hi,
my thoughts are:
Darkening of indices: mostly due to humidity! =(
UV light does not have an input in darkening of Tritium... ;)
imho: Darkening main reason might be: microbiological aktivity!Humidity is needed as growthfactor!
This might be the reason that indices under heavy uv do not darken, as uv light has severe antimicrobiotic influence.
So far my theorie only... :grb:
But it could explain the very different aging we see so often... :]
Thus: store in a dry and cool place...take care the dial does not get touched and contaminated!
;)

[steboe]

...and it might be usefull to have it firm packed first and then Gamma sterilized if my theory is right... ;)

We should have some old Trtiumdials(esp. the markers) analyzed by laboratory for mircrobiological settlement...

[ehemaliges mitglied]

I was concerned about the same topic.
Humidity as an "aging" factor was mentioned a couple of times in the different threads on R-L-X.

But aren't we talking about Oyster-Cases ?
I mean, the humidity has to stay outside the watch :grb:

On the other hand, if we consider humidity an agent of Dial-Patina-increase what about the idea of putting an absorbant material like silica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_gel) gel inside the Safe too ?

I am wondering because many owners of big collections keep the watches inside plastic-bags - shouldnt't that support a humide micro-climate ?

On the other hand: may it be, that to low humidity can also cause agressive changings, leading to dry out the Tritium and causing desintegration and powderness ?

Sorry John, more new questions then answers.

[jholbrook]

Thinking about this some more, I think from a humidity standpoint, I live in a pretty favorable area of the world. Ohio is very dry in the winter, and the humidity in the Summer normally isn't too bad.

I was initially somewhat excited about the thought that the markers might actually get whiter until I realized that the rest of the dial would likely fade and dull with UV exposure. 8o

Here's a question I've always wondered - what is it about those early bezels which makes them fade to grey? I've seen that look several times. Do the new bezels fade that badly?

Thinking about this some more, I assume UV exposure primarily causes bezel fade. Given that the dials do not exhibit the same level of fade, might it be logical to conclude the crystal does indeed provide a significant measure of UV protection?

[steboe]

Original von Hadoque
I was concerned about the same topic.
Humidity as an "aging" factor was mentioned a couple of times in the different threads on R-L-X.

But aren't we talking about Oyster-Cases ?
I mean, the humidity has to stay outside the watch :grb:

On the other hand, if we consider humidity an agent of Dial-Patina-increase what about the idea of putting an absorbant material like silica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_gel) gel inside the Safe too ?

I am wondering because many owners of big collections keep the watches inside plastic-bags - shouldnt't that support a humide micro-climate ?

Sorry John, more new questions then answers.

we can asume normal air inside of the watches, they are not Air-Tight!
I store with Silika too... ;)

[newharry]

Original von Hadoque
But aren't we talking about Oyster-Cases ?
I mean, the humidity has to stay outside the watch :grb:

On the other hand, if we consider humidity an agent of Dial-Patina-increase what about the idea of putting an absorbant material like silica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_gel) gel inside the Safe too ?

I am wondering because many owners of big collections keep the watches inside plastic-bags - shouldnt't that support a humide micro-climate ?

On the other hand: may it be, that to low humidity can also cause agressive changings, leading to dry out the Tritium and causing desintegration and powderness ?


#1 Especially the old plastic crystals are not airtight and in many cases not even waterproof anymore - so we can assume a higher level of humidity in the watch if there is higher humidity outside the watch ;)

#2 That might be a good idea

#3 Exactly that was discussed in verious English speaking forums recently

#4 That might be a factor as well - take a look at the humidity considerations in many museums or art storage providers where the humidity level is regulated exactly to a level that is considered to be exactly right for the art objects stored.

[ehemaliges mitglied]

So this leads us to the ultimate question:

What would be the perfect range of environmental humiditiy to set-up for the storage of vintage watches.

( if possible, e.g. if we have a kind of "Humidor" or aircondition-device ;)

We probably have not - but it's interesting to think about )

[Boris_Koch]

To Hadoque:

Most serious vintage collectors would have gotten their watch with patina. There are actually collectors who like ONLY very dark patina. Therefore, the patina would be there before the watches would find themselves in a safe, and I doubt that humidity in there would cause that much modification. As you rightly point out, most safe come with a silica bag. Just checked in mine and, yes, I found one such bag.

As Stobe rightly points out, Oysters are not air tight. When you pull the crown out to reset the time or date, some air would get in, and if charged with humidity, some water as well. The best example of this would be on some old Tudor 7016 with black dial and square markers. This particular dial was notorious to degrade and flake over time because of humidity, so despite the watch being a Sub (case + crystal identical to the 5513) and water tight to 200m, the humidity contained in the air, when used in maritime environment would cause degradation to the dial.

Case in point (photo courtesy of Neo):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/neofeet/TUDOR/cadran.jpg

Later, when Rolex evolved the Tudor Sub to the reference 94010, they used a different coating to the dial and that resolved the issue - at least for the dial itself.

This picture also serves as an excellent illustration to John's question about bezel fading. UV exposure is definitely a factor over time, but I doubt it is the only one in those heavily faded bezels you sometimes see. More likely it would be a combination of heavy exposition to sunlight + salt water that would cause a bezel insert to fade dramatically.

[Boris_Koch]

Originally posted by Hadoque
So this leads us to the ultimate question:

What would be the perfect range of environmental humiditiy to set-up for the storage of vintage watches.

( if possible, e.g. if we have a kind of "Humidor" or aircondition-device ;)

We probably have not - but it's interesting to think about )

OK - will try. The range should be: less humid than my shower, but more humid than inside my fridge.

Does it help? :D

[PCS]

Original von Boris_Koch

This picture also serves as an excellent illustration to John's question about bezel fading. UV exposure is definitely a factor over time, but I doubt it is the only one in those heavily faded bezels you sometimes see. More likely it would be a combination of heavy exposition to sunlight + salt water that would cause a bezel insert to fade dramatically.

Yes, I also think that UV on its own would not have this effect at all.
But quite interesting, that most faded Submariner bezels i saw, were faded
pretty consistantly. GMT bezels mostly fade from the outside to the inside.

http://pics.r-l-x.de/picserv/files/2/rolex/1680/DSC03426.jpg

[jholbrook]

Percy - looking at that GMT bezel on the right, I must conclude that either:

A)The red and blue paint used have very different properties causing uneven fade.
B)The watch was under a long sleeve shirt most days, with the top half exposed, and the bottom have safe under the shirt. :tongue:

[PCS]

The old GMT bezels were painted red, the blue paint was applicated above.
That's the reason why the blue paint fades out much faster.

Later, they changes from red to blue color and applicated te red paint above.
Those bezels are getting pink. I guess, the change from red to blue was in
the late 80's but I'm not sure about that.

[Bob D]

John,
I'm a bit older than you and just learned that a dear friend from my college years suddenly died. It brings home my mortality.

Without foreknowledge (which of course we do not have) we may be aging faster than the components of our watches.

So...wear them all in the best of health and if you out-age your watch dial lumes, hooray for you; then buy another one to wear out!!

All the best,
Bob

[watchman]

Original von Boris_Koch
Originally, I took for granted, like most, that the more tritium gets exposed to light, the darker the patina.

Yet there's a couple of instances recently where guys have posted pictures of 5513 that they bought with a yellow patina, which became lighter over time as they were wearing them. One of them is a guy I know personally, his account is here. (http://forum.chronomania.net/mix_entry.php?id=27826#p27826) Sorry it's in French, but I think the pictures speak for themselves. The first was shot in June 2006 and show a uniform light yellow patina. The second is from early 2007, and the indexes are almost pure white. Some other accounts were given by Jaume on TZ Rolex vintage here (http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=2949560&rid=3902) and there. (http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=3194655&rid=0)

Honnestly, I don't quite know what to make of it. It could be the result of the light exposure, different levels of humidity where the watch was stored, etc.

Could also be that tritium color degrades more to yellow when exposed to bright light as the radioactive material is still active. And then, when the degradation caused by radioactivity is dead, strong light would cause the same whitening effect it does on any colored object.

So if it were me, I'd do what I do with any other watch: store it in a safe when not wearing the watch. And this would never, ever prevent me from wearing the watch when I feel like it, ie either in summer or winter (not that we have much winter in Singapore anyways).

I guess, if anything, this shows that, as in all things Rolex, there is never one definitive truth (except for Mr Patrizzi of course, for any watch he happens to have on sale).

Boris

thx boris for this interesting statement! :gut:

[Bob D]

Hey gang, I read an article that included the word eremacausis. :rolleyes:

It is defined as: Gradual oxidation of organic matter from exposure to air and moisture.

Now we have a word to describe some of what may be happening to watch dials over time. :tongue:

Maybe this describes why my hair is getting thinner and grayer :grb: X(

[delgado]

Dont know if this helps, but I got this watch from the original owner of 30 plus yrs.. Worn everyday, eat and sleep with it.. even shower..

The soap build up was so thick that I could not read the serial or model numbers!! But the dial was nice, so I got it..

Anyway, he purchased the watch in Copenhagen and moved to the US, Florida.. The hot and humid Florida sun was a constant exposure to this dial and I am surprised on how white the markers are...

This leads me to believe that there is some credibility to the white=used watch, yellow=stored..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/drdelgado/1680RSbp/D2x3882.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/drdelgado/1680RSbp/D2x3959.jpg

[THX_Ultra]

Hm a very interesting thesis, would be interesting to find some more watches worn like that to prove that.

[jholbrook]

Wow...like I needed another good reason why to move back to Florida! :rofl:

[delgado]

Well, so far its just anecdotal pieces. But JD posted a NOS watch with original box, papers, and even the original 1665 sticker on the caseback.. The watch had been sitting in a safe for 30yrs... The dial, hands and bezel dot.. yes, yellow in color..perfectly matching..

Obviously, no exposure to UV or very little humidity..

Anyway, its a puzzle but I am sure with more watches that come from their original stories and better understanding of the chemistry of tritium. Hopefully, we will have definitive answer..

[PCS]

So maybe it really is a different chemical composition of the luminous material,
maybe depending on from which producer the dial came from.

Many maybes at all. ;)