RedSub variations....

[bullibeer]

On a forum,.. they started to post all Redsub variations,.... and there are much more then i knew.
On the mtr's first there are different with different 'f' and SUBMARINER printed on the dial or printed on white beneath.....
Philipp has them in a great overview....

So i will start,... and hopefully you will add others,.. Mike, Ed you are the 'masters' so please help....

Thanks, Bernhard

A. early editions (MK1) in my version,.. but there are more (Phillip please help) > 1967-1970






B Open 6 version (wide open 6) ,... 1970 - end of 1972






C. Open 6, but less open > 'Beyeler Dial',... about 1971- end of 1972






D. Closed 6, last version > about 1973 till 1974








And of course the dates,... are not 100% correct, also Rolex used dials when they where still available..,..... comment very welcome,...

[ehemaliges mitglied]

Bernhard,

the second picture from the top kind of looks like as if the red "submariner" was printed over a white submariner? Is this just the light?

I cant believe how many variations there are...

Great job! Boris

[retsyo]

Sorry that I can't show even more variations, but I wasn't aware that there were so many variations at all...

Great comparative pictures!

[bullibeer]

Yes,.. that is normal,... on the mtr's first dials there are variations,.. where the red is printed on top of white! I guess because they needed the white to get the red bright enough,....

[Hannibal]

Great comparative pictures. I cannot add another one, cause the word submariner on my watch is white .
But I have a question: What does "Swiss - T < 25" mean? Mine says "Swiss made".
Kind regards
Volker

[delgado]

Bernhard,

Nice review. I might to use this..

There is at least another meters first dial with the long "f" in the depth markings.. the coronet is like the first version of 600/200.

photos courtesy of diverdick,



compared to your scan

[delgado]

Boris,

Its common to see red over white paint in most reds.

Volker

"SWISS MADE" only might indicate a service replacement dial. Can you post a scan?

Delgado

[bullibeer]

Original von delgado
Bernhard,

Nice review. I might to use this..

There is at least another meters first dial with the long "f" in the depth markings.. the coronet is like the first version of 600/200.

photos courtesy of diverdick,

compared to your scan

Yes Ed,... that's the right one,.. i was missing and meaning in my topic.
Philipp has a couple...
Then there are the images of the very early ones without minute-markers,.. but i never understood if they are 100% genuine.... ???

[Hannibal]

delgado:
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I do not own a RedSubmariner. I have an ordinary Submariner and the dial says: "Swiss made"

But in the picture from the post above, one can see the following:


My question was: What does this mean?

Kind regards
Volker

[delgado]

Volker,

Your red sub dial looks ok, the "SWISS MADE" one, on what model and what year? is a current model with luminova?

T<25 mean that it contains less than 25 milllicuries of tritium.

Delgado

[Hannibal]

Hello Delgado,
thank you for your information.
Once again, i do not own any RedSubmariner, the fotodetail is taken from the post of bullibeer.
My watch is shown in the picture below:

Kind regards
Volker

[philipp]

Imho there are 3 versions of the 200 meter first Red's...Here some of my knowledge on the 200 first series where i see the serials now as....

- Closed 6 with longest F over FT and red over white Submariner..from serial 1.7? - 2.2xx.xxx
- Open 6 with long F touching the FT and red over white Submariner.. from 2.1 - 2.4xx.xxx
- Open 6 with smallest F and red Submariner directly on the dial.. 2.2 - 2.4xx.xxx

Here the bigger scan: http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ub200m-660.jpg



Here a close up from a 'red over white' print..

[/IMG]

and here a scan of a red directly on the dial..





Off course there are also different ' dial confersion - serial numbers ' around. Last couple of years we know that serveral dials have been swapped making a box and paper example more rare and valuable by putting in a tropical dial for instance...Provenace is here the key word giving us some proof. And as always, everything is possible within Rolex. Rumour say that the first was a 1,7 million but untill now i have not seen an pre 2,1 million redsub yet....

Some thinking from my side especially when i compare the Redsubs with the Drsd. Early drsd mk1 & some mk2 had the red over white paint and later all mk3-4 etc seadwellers the red is directly on the dial. So logical these 2 versions in the 200 meter first with 'red over white' should be the early ones and the 200 meter first where the red goes directly would be more the transitional type going from 200/660 to 660/200 dials where red was always directly on the dial....Imho Rolex found a more clean way to print the red visible directly on the dial because the 'experimental' fase of red over white wasn't as nice and looking sometimes quite strange and messy..

Earlier this week and after being in a long battle for some time with a very nice collector, i finally got this amazing 2,29x xxx redsub that i can happily share with you... In my eye the most beautifull 1680 meters first with the red submariner printing directly on the dial..& pleasant detail for me, the perfect aging to a tropical brown dial ; - )

Rgrds.Philipp












Here the big scans:

- http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...edbrasil-1.jpg
- http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...edbrasil-2.jpg
-http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...0redbrasil.jpg[IMG]

[bullibeer]

Perfect Philipp,... that's what i was hoping for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Grazie!

[miboroco]

Sehr interessant

[philipp]

see you soon, rgrds.P

[philipp]

Then there are the images of the very early ones without minute-markers,.. but i never understood if they are 100% genuine.... ???

Like the meters first one that Modani had and shows in his Submariner Book you probably mean..this was by serial not a very early one but had 3,8 million..Imho i see these as unfinised or rejected dials and probably not officially sold by Rolex. There is no logical reason why a 3,8 million case and a 2,1 to 2,4 million meters first & dial could match expect that it got in there via the backdoor of the printer...

http://images.antiquorum.com/108/full/26.jpg

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalo...&auctionid=108

Anyway A. also sells a 5,2 million case with a 2.1 - 2.4xx.xxx dial for big money. I always wonder what they say to their clients "afterwards".. stating to their buyers that these were a special delivery or quoting it as an mistake of Rolex..Hmmm

http://images.antiquorum.com/171/full/81.jpg

http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalo...&auctionid=171



Regards,

Philipp

Here my Arabian 2,38 million 200/660 with the red over white on the dial...; - )




and the better scans..


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...geredsubbp.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...tropicalbp.jpg

[delgado]

Philipp,

The scan that you have as "directly on the dial" is not correct. That one the white paint has not shown from under the red..but trust me its there... wanna remove it for a bet I dont suggest it...

The ones directly on the dial look much thinner..

BTW nice post..

Delgado

[bullibeer]

Yes Philipp,... there is your challenge,....... go for it...

[philipp]

Hi Ed,

I have had the same remark from *philip* i will ago " Are you sure there is no white paint behind the 2 Sub words on left ?...

almost certain.. but think that you will find a dial somewhere so i don't have to scratch it ; - )..here some bigger scans where you see that there is a difference in printing technique. Imho the red that goes in my eyes directly to the dial is much sharper und richer rounded laying on top of the dial...



&

besides the redprint technique, the font is also different, one thin and the other thicker and the F doesn't touches the FT and one F is on top longer than the other..



The same logic i posted on VRF in a discussion with M.Pisani..early 1680 red dials : dedicated to Philipp, December 31 2007 at 8:28 AM....Where you already partying at that time ; - )

Let us know what you think.

Enjoy the Sunday, Rgrds.Philipp

[delgado]

I did not participate on the discussion on VRF with Mr Pisani but he is a very knowledgeable collector and has been collecting watches for a long time.

Just to illustrate ..

This is bernhard example of paint directly on the dial.. you can see its not as "heavy" on the dial since it is directly on the dial.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q...elerDetail.jpg

Again, this is not a red sub but also illustrate red paint directly on the dial.